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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 26
 Post subject: Re: 2nd Colle Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:06 am 
fad3r wrote:
Hi everyone,

No one answered my first question about the playability of this opening so I will ask a follow up question: After d4, Nf3, e3, Bd3, 0-0, Nbd2 isn’t white's bishop on c1 in an ugly predicament (blocked by it a knight and pawn?)


Thx,

Leon

It looks like it, but it really isn't. Once you've going through your opening:

1d4
2Nf3
3e3
4bd3
5Nbd2

From here, the plan is to push the e3 pawn to e4. This usually results in dxe4 then Nd2xe4 opening up the c1 bishop, creating the 'colle bishop'.


If you are interested in learning more about the opening, I highly recommend Dimitrij Oleinikov's Colle System training CD.


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Knight
 
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:49 am
Posts: 32
Location: Kidwelly, Wales
 Post subject: Colle
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:52 pm 
Having switched from the KID a couple of seasons ago, I've had to learn an answer to the Colle. The Black set-up I went for was d5, Nf6, c5, e6, Nc6, Bd6, 0-0. This fits well with the QGD / Semi-Slav lines I wanted to play, in terms of move order. However, having refined my choice to the a6 slav, I am thinking of moving to 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bf5. I believe this gives the Colle player some problems. Any comments from anyone with experience of either colour ?


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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 26
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:59 pm 
I see alot of the 3. e3 Bf5

I can't speak for other people, but my normal reaction to that would be nothing. I figure I'll just take back with my queen if need be. I'll just continue with my development.

But hey, I just started playing this opening not too long ago. Hopefully someone with more experience will reply. I'd love to see other opinions.


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Knight
 
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:04 pm
Posts: 46
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:59 pm 
1d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4 the bishop left b7 unprotected if 4 ...c6 5 Nc3 followed by Qb3!


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Knight
 
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:49 am
Posts: 32
Location: Kidwelly, Wales
 Post subject: Colle into a6 Slav
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:50 am 
Hi Riverton Knight,
The line you suggest 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bf5 4.c4 c6 5.Nc3 leads into a topical line after 5...., a6. If White continues with Qb3 there is a choice between Qc7, Ra7 and b5.


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Knight
 
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:04 pm
Posts: 46
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:01 pm 
Well I think the slight pull White gets by actually following classic principles in this position ... instead of the following the rigid Colle-Koltanowski plan (5 Bd3), should suit anyone needing a suitable line vs Bf5. As far as Qc7 I don't believe the pawn sac. As far as 6 ... Ra7 after 7 cd cd 8 Ne5 or 8 Bd2 the statistics I have ... favor White (he is playing for 2 results at about 75%) And for 6 ...b5 (the stifest test from my limited viewpoint) 7 cd cd 8 Nh4 needs more tests and even the more common 8 a4 might still be a good choice but would require deeper study. And 6 Qb3 doesn't have to be automatic, 6 Bd3 seems to be statistically better than 5 Bd3 but you are still out of the realm of the Colle. (with c4 having been played, but your knight is more active) Are we after routine moves you play from memory (that sometimes end in inferior positions) or actual chess understanding?

Have a great day !! Cheers, AJ


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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 26
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:43 am 
Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 Bf5. I believe this gives the Colle player some problems. Any comments from anyone with experience of either colour ?
I just finished reading this section in Oleinikov's book.

He does describe this as an anti-Colle. You can't continue your Colle development and the most common response is the one given by RivertonKnight.

You might want to think about what you do with 4.c4. If you do the wrong thing, you might be setting yourself up for a trap, a rather painful trap if you aren't careful. It is called the Bogoljubow trap.


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King
 
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:57 am
Posts: 142
Location: Leeds, UK
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:19 pm 
Eladar wrote:

You might want to think about what you do with 4.c4. If you do the wrong thing, you might be setting yourself up for a trap, a rather painful trap if you aren't careful. It is called the Bogoljubow trap.


Yeah, there’s an interesting article on that here :)

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/summer05/torre-saemisch.htm

It’s actually spelled ‘Bogolyubov’ though, as in Efim Bogolyubov – I don’t know where this new version of his name has come from, I’m seeing it all over the place recently :?


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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 26
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:49 pm 
I did a quick glance through the link, but that wasn't the trap.

The worst case scenerio for black is to respond in this manner:

4. c7

This leads to 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Nc3 e6

Now to spring the trap:

7.Ne5

White expects to get the usual Nbd7 or Nc6 followed by 8.g4!

Is this trap somewhere on that page?

I'm not sure about the spelling, I just copied it from what was Oleinikov's CD. I always check my spelling a few times because they are names I'm not very familiar with.


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King
 
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:57 am
Posts: 142
Location: Leeds, UK
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:49 pm 
Eladar wrote:
I did a quick glance through the link, but that wasn't the trap.

The worst case scenerio for black is to respond in this manner:

4. c7

This leads to 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Nc3 e6

Now to spring the trap:

7.Ne5

White expects to get the usual Nbd7 or Nc6 followed by 8.g4!

Is this trap somewhere on that page?

I'm not sure about the spelling, I just copied it from what was Oleinikov's CD. I always check my spelling a few times because they are names I'm not very familiar with.


Nope it's my bad, I miss read the whole thing, sorry about that, was half asleep :roll: :lol:


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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 26
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:48 am 
No problem.

I suppose I should have typed 4.c6 instead of 4.c7. If I remember my cooridinates properly c7 starts the game out at c7. :roll:


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Pawn
 
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:04 am
Posts: 13
 Post subject: Zukertort Book
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:12 am 
There is a new book devoted to just the Zukertort... you can see more info at www.zukertort.com

-Z


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King
 
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:57 am
Posts: 142
Location: Leeds, UK
 Post subject: Re: Zukertort Book
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:45 pm 
Zukertort wrote:
There is a new book devoted to just the Zukertort... you can see more info at www.zukertort.com

-Z


Lol! Zuke 'Em - I don't think much of the system, but I may buy the book for the cover alone :lol:


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King
 
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Placentia, CA
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:18 am 
RivertonKnight wrote:
1d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4 the bishop left b7 unprotected if 4 ...c6 5 Nc3 followed by Qb3!

After 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4, as Black I prefer the more aggressive 4...e6 (recommended by Soltis). After 5 Qb3, Black plays 5...Nc6!?. If white then plays 6 Qxb7?!, after 6...Nb4! 7 Na3 Rb8 8 Qxa7 Ra8 9 Qb7, Black can force a draw with 9...Rb8, or whip up a powerful attack with 9...Rxa3! 10 bxa3 Nc2+, etc.

Of course, White can refuse to take the bait and play 6 c5, but then Black gets a solid position after 6...c6.


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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 26
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:29 pm 
Now that I've played the Colle for a while, I'd like to respond to the original post. Is the Colle system a good system? I'd say the bigger question is 1.d4 a good opening move?

After 1.d4 your opponent has alot to say with where you are going to go from there. The Colle is a great opening against some of black's openings, but it is horrible against others. I don't see how anyone would suggest playing the Colle vs. the KID.

If you are going to play 1.d4 you must develop a 1.d4 repetoire. The Colle is a solid way to break the ice and start to learn how to play 1.d4.

I bring up the KID because now my 1.d4 repetoire includes the Barry vs the KID. It reminds me of the London, so I suppose I'm opening the door for Nasgard to say "why don't you just play the London all the time?"

Perhaps one day I will! But for now I'm still learning how to the Colle correctly when the Colle is a solid reply.


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