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King
 
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 150
 Post subject: Is the Gruenfeld Defense Dying?....
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:24 am 
I had a recent chat with my chess coach about the Gruenfeld Defense because I was thinking to adopt it. He looked at me and said "The Gruenfeld is finished-- it is an historical opening now!!" Because the theory has been completely exhausted and busted, he went on. And so is the Benoni , also the Portuguese variation of the Scandinavian, which I am fond of.
I told my teacher that I yearned for dynamic tension of some of those gruenfeld positions-- and that I was sorry I did not buy a rare copy of Larsens's book on gruenfeld pawn structures when a store in new york had one for $60 (too much money I thought then.)
He convinced me to take a up a line he had not prepared for me for the lesson, an adventurous Scandinavian Line. I am still re-reading Shamkovitch's Gruenfeld book when I see old games to study.
What provokes me to mention this now is chessbase publishers announced that they are distributing a new cd this month-- on the gruenfeld! go figure.
I'd like to know the opinions of some of our titled players here about the future of this defense for the tournament player.


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Rook
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:33 am
Posts: 80
Location: Dublin
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:38 pm 
Julius Breyer wrote:
After 1.e4 White's game is in its last throes!

Bobby Fischer wrote:
The King's Gambit is busted!

I suspect there's plenty of life left in the Grünfeld.


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King
 
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:12 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:02 am 
Hi fickle,
I am not sure your examples strengthen your point.
First, the Gyula Breyer quote...about 1e4. I don't think Breyer was writing for all generations, just his. While there are great e4 players particularly Anand! -and I love Khalifman's amazing book about playing e4 as white in anand's style from <chess stars>-- and I am an e4 player-- I know that on the GM level 1d4 outscores 1e4 for white--Breyer wasn't stupid!
ref the Bobby Fischer article 'a bust to..." that was a controversial article, I think is is necessary for a certain kind of adventurer to play the KG for a while at a certain time in his chess life, not because it is winning rather because it is going to force the player to play with vigor and develop a certain style. In the same regard, and excepting thematic tourneys - some correspondence too-- the King's Gambit is an historical opening. If you have a recent super-gm KGA game to cite here, that might 'bust my prejudice' about this.
You push any pawn you want, fickle. I am ready!
your chess friend, LooseDiigit


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Site Admin
 
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:20 pm
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Location: Maryland
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:19 am 
fickle wrote:
Julius Breyer wrote:
After 1.e4 White's game is in its last throes!



I'm pretty certain Breyer said that just to wind Tartakower up. :lol:


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King
 
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:12 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:26 am 
now ChessBAse has added detail about their Gruenfeld training disk. It is intended for club players. I guess that means it is not going to be as useful as Shamkovitch's or even Rowson's book.
I have a wait-and-see attitude about this. But if a GM were plugging this Defense, I would be less inclined to believe my Coach about the death of the Gruenfeld Defense.
Has anyone else noticed that Rowson has the opening move order stated incorrectly in his analysis of donald Byrne versus RJ Fischer, 1956?
<I wonder if a John Nunn corrected version is in the works, like the same way Gambit Press has twisted up poor Vukovic's Rochade Angrif>


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King
 
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:12 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:09 am 
Latest rumour is that IM Aagaard i sfinishing a new Gruenfeld Defense book to be in-stores March of '04. From the laugh-out-loud department. ... the author of the most recently published Gruenfeld book available herein new york has lost a rated-game to a nine year-old boy named Gershenow. the game was published in the new york state chess association newsletter.
He's a nice kid, I have played him.


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Newbie
 
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:19 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:33 am 
the grunfeld and the benoni dying????
I was just considering adopting one of them.... :(
anyway, I am not sure the grunfeld is dying; Sutovsky still plays it a lot...and he works a lot on his black openings....it's true that compared to the years 1998-2000 where all top GMs where playing the grunfeld, things have changed...they all play the slav or the Nimzo/QID now...too bad....I prefer the KID, or the Grunfeld and the Benoni....


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Rook
 
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:49 pm
Posts: 86
Location: Texas
 Post subject: No Opening Ever Dies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:39 am 
Only one humble opinion:

There are, what? 40-odd recognized chess openings? We will never see ANY of them take that final swirl down the toilet. Even the Latvian Gambit still lives, or at least limps along after 500 years.

All openings, including the Gruenfeld, are built on sound principles which cannot be busted. Sure fashions come & go, but our pet openings press on.

So play what you like & don't worry 8)


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Newbie
 
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:57 am
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:41 am 
I doubt e4 is dying anytime soon. As for Grunfled and Benoni, they did seem like bad openings when I first look at them. Sometimes first guesses are best ones.


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King
 
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:12 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:41 pm 
i just got a book about the gruenfeld defense in the mail today which seems to butress the gist of my question.
"how to get the edge against the gruenfeld," by a FIDE 2600+ player named Sakaev is written in English but published in Bulgaria.
there are 166 pages of text, starting on page 7 so 159 really. these are double column pages with diagrams ( not big diagrams very little fluff here).
the author organizes his book around a system for white....
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.c:d5 N:d5 5e4 N:c3 6. b:c3 Bg7 7.Bc4 ...

I will let you all know at a future time whether my mind can digest this meal.
best regards- LooseDigit


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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:23 pm
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 Post subject: Sakaev's book
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:30 pm 
I have heard good things about Sakaev's book. But where did you get it from, Loosedigit?
Thanks, CMA


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King
 
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:32 am
Posts: 182
Location: India
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:10 pm 
According to my database, the King's Indian Defense is far more popular than
the Gruenfeld in master play. When searched for games, the search results went as follows:

King's Indian Defense: 424 games in database
Gruenfeld Defense: 106 games in database
Benoni (Modern benoni): 107 games in database

However,one can see that the Gruenfeld Defense is as popular as Benoni, and both of them are
certainly dying if you compare their popularity to that of the King's Indian Defense.

But the White and Black performance puts a question mark over the KID's fame.

My database says:

King's Indian Defense:
White wins: 36%
Draws: 44%
Black wins: 20%
Overall performance: White: 58% Black: 42%

Gruenfeld Defense:
White wins: 26%
Draws: 59%
Black wins: 15%
Overall performance: White: 55% Black: 45%

Benoni (Modern Benoni):
White wins: 31%
Draws: 46%
Black wins: 23%
Overall performance: White: 54% Black: 46%

Certainly the Black performance is better when Black plays the Gruenfeld or the Benoni.

So can we not consider the Gruenfeld and the Benoni better than the KID? :?:


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King
 
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:17 am
Posts: 115
Location: Tempe, AZ
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:07 pm 
Here is what Mega 2004 has:

This is pulled from 2002-2004, but the last games are from 11/2003.

Gruenfeld D80-D99
============

4,296 Games
1 - 0 37%
1/2 - 1/2 35%
0 - 1 28%


KID A48-A49
========

2,366 Games
1 - 0 31%
1/2 - 1/2 33%
0 - 1 36%

KID E60-E99
========

15,874 Games
1 - 0 40%
1/2 - 1/2 30%
0 - 1 30%


Benoni A60-A79
==========

2,639 Games
1 - 0 41%
1/2 - 1/2 25%
0 - 1 34%

Benoni A56
=======

521 Games
1 - 0 37%
1/2 - 1/2 27%
0 - 1 36%


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Rook
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:33 am
Posts: 80
Location: Dublin
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:42 pm 
LooseDigit wrote:
i just got a book about the gruenfeld defense in the mail today which seems to butress the gist of my question.
"how to get the edge against the gruenfeld," by a FIDE 2600+ player named Sakaev is written in English but published in Bulgaria.
there are 166 pages of text, starting on page 7 so 159 really. these are double column pages with diagrams ( not big diagrams very little fluff here).
the author organizes his book around a system for white....
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.c:d5 N:d5 5e4 N:c3 6. b:c3 Bg7 7.Bc4 ...

I will let you all know at a future time whether my mind can digest this meal.
best regards- LooseDigit

Have you digested it yet? :D

I have just been reading Hans Berliner's The System, a fascinating book I strongly recommend.

He gives the following "refutation" of the Gruenfeld line that you quote above:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Ne2 Nc6 9.Be3! b6 10.h4! initiating a kingside attack, while keeping the king in the centre.

Quote:
Black has no long-term hope of countering this. If 10...Na5 11 Bd3 e5, then 12.h5 Qe7 13.Qd2 exd4 14.cxd4 Bb7 15.f3 and White stands clearly superior. One possibility is 15...c5 16.Bh6 Bxh6 17.Qxh6 cxd4 18.e5! with a very strong attack ...

If above instead of 9...b6 Black plays 9...e5, then 10.Qd2 gets into all the correct transpositions.

9...Na5 10.Bd3 c5 11.Rc1!, when we are back in one of the main lines.

Also, 8...b6 is met with the immediate 9.h4 e5 10.h5 exd4 11.hxg6 hxg6 12.cxd4 Qe7 13.Qb3!


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King
 
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:32 am
Posts: 182
Location: India
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:01 am 
fickle wrote:
LooseDigit wrote:
i just got a book about the gruenfeld defense in the mail today which seems to butress the gist of my question.
"how to get the edge against the gruenfeld," by a FIDE 2600+ player named Sakaev is written in English but published in Bulgaria.
there are 166 pages of text, starting on page 7 so 159 really. these are double column pages with diagrams ( not big diagrams very little fluff here).
the author organizes his book around a system for white....
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.c:d5 N:d5 5e4 N:c3 6. b:c3 Bg7 7.Bc4 ...

I will let you all know at a future time whether my mind can digest this meal.
best regards- LooseDigit

Have you digested it yet? :D

I have just been reading Hans Berliner's The System, a fascinating book I strongly recommend.

He gives the following "refutation" of the Gruenfeld line that you quote above:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Ne2 Nc6 9.Be3! b6 10.h4! initiating a kingside attack, while keeping the king in the centre.

Quote:
Black has no long-term hope of countering this. If 10...Na5 11 Bd3 e5, then 12.h5 Qe7 13.Qd2 exd4 14.cxd4 Bb7 15.f3 and White stands clearly superior. One possibility is 15...c5 16.Bh6 Bxh6 17.Qxh6 cxd4 18.e5! with a very strong attack ...

If above instead of 9...b6 Black plays 9...e5, then 10.Qd2 gets into all the correct transpositions.

9...Na5 10.Bd3 c5 11.Rc1!, when we are back in one of the main lines.

Also, 8...b6 is met with the immediate 9.h4 e5 10.h5 exd4 11.hxg6 hxg6 12.cxd4 Qe7 13.Qb3!



But 9...b6 and 10...Na5 look quite playable to me. I have never tried them myself, or is it that I don't remember playing them, but the position that Black gets is promising for at least for a draw.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bc4 O-O 8. Ne2 Nc6 9. Be3 b6 10. h4 Na5 11. Bd3 c5 12. Rc1 Be6!?:

a) 13. Qd2?! Nc4! 14. Bxc4 Bxc4 15. h5!? Qd7! To defend against the king-side attack with an eventual ...Qg4. Also, Black will attempt to simplify the position through exchanges (...Bxe2; ...cxd4 etc.), which, of course, would lead to an advantageous endgame for Black.

b) 13. Ra1? cxd4! 14. cxd4 Nc4! And the c4-weakness can be further exploited with ...Rc8. Also, the White queen's bishop, which is probably the strongest White minor piece on the board and has the added responsibility of defending the centre, can be (and should be) exchanged with ...Nxe3, when White will reply fxe3, giving in another weakness in his pawn structure.

c) 13. dxc5?! bxc5 14. Bxc5 Bxa2 15. Bb4!? Nc4! Again, the c4-weakness is noticable. Black will attempt to win the weak White c-pawn with ...Qc7 and ...Rac8, when White's immobile forces will be on the defense of the pawn. Black's pieces enjoy more freedom and should open a second front for an attack when White's resistance is bound to break.

d) 13. d5! Bc8 14. c4 e6 15. h5 exd5 16. cxd5 gxh5 17. Ng3! Thus, 13. d5 seems to be the best move for White. White has a pawn majority in the center (Notice that the White d-pawn is a passed pawn.), while Black enjoys the same on the queen-side (The Black c-pawn is a passed pawn). The king-side is barren of any further play: the weakness of the Black isolated h-pawn on the half-open file can hardly be exploited to much extent. Therefore, the play will shift to the center and the queen's wing. Though the endgame is likely to be interesting, with best play from both the sides, a draw should result.


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