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 Post subject: How to play against the Milner-Barry Gambit?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:11 am 
I play the Caro-Kann and in some recent games I've had the following played against me:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. f3 ...

After 4...exf3 5. Nxf3 Nf6 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. Bg5 O-O my opponent (silicon based, which makes it worse in a way I can't adequately explain) uses the knight outpost at e5 and the open f file to lauch a huge attack.

After doing a bit of research, I think this gambit is called the Milner-Barry gambit. Can anyone give me some tips on what the best lines for Black are please?

I suppose I could play 4...e5 instead of taking the gambit pawn, but as someone (was it Steinitz?) said, 'The refutation of a gambit frequently lies in it's acceptance' :)

I think that perhaps I should try to get my light squared bishop outside the pawn chain - to either f5 of g4 before I play e7-e6.

Any ideas?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:11 am 
I always thought the Milner-Barry gambit was a line in French Advance: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 !? ...
Not less venomous though than 4. f3 Caro.

In yr example, after further 4.- Nf6 (instead of 4. -exf3) this actually is Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (O'Kelly variation) arrived usually from 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 ...

And BDG is known to be deadly - for both sides.
So maybe you'll do ok by responding 4. -Nf6 and armed by BDG-theory. 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:24 pm 
mrmip wrote:
I always thought the Milner-Barry gambit was a line in French Advance: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 !? ...
Not less venomous though than 4. f3 Caro.

In yr example, after further 4.- Nf6 (instead of 4. -exf3) this actually is Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (O'Kelly variation) arrived usually from 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 ...

And BDG is known to be deadly - for both sides.
So maybe you'll do ok by responding 4. -Nf6 and armed by BDG-theory. 8)


Oh no, not the BDG!!! :lol: Perhaps I'll avoid it with 4...e5 after all!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:14 pm 
Quote:
Oh no, not the BDG!!! Perhaps I'll avoid it with 4...e5 after all!


Yeah, pops up everywhere and when you least expect. A line that bothers French lovers no end is Alapins:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Be3 dxe4 4.f3 !? ....

Guess, where this often leads to .. :roll:


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 Post subject: Silman to the rescue!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:44 pm 
Pesky BDG! I just found analysis by Jeremy Silman which I think should prove useful to me - I thought my mistake was not getting my c8 bishop outside the pawn chain, and Silman's suggestions make sure the bishop gets outside the pawn chain asap!

http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_ ... _gmbt.html


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 Post subject: Re: Silman to the rescue!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:55 am 
SonOfPearl wrote:
Pesky BDG! I just found analysis by Jeremy Silman which I think should prove useful to me - I thought my mistake was not getting my c8 bishop outside the pawn chain, and Silman's suggestions make sure the bishop gets outside the pawn chain asap!


If you read my post about the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit and the reply I got (a nice link to Andrew Martin's "refutation" of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit), you will be a lot wiser. Of course the bishop must be placed outside the pawn chain and it must go to g6 (do not take the pawn on c2!) The resulting position will be about equal. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:53 am 
The Milner-Barry Gambit in action:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 Bd7 7.O-O cxd4 8.cxd4
Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 Qxe5 11.Re1 Qd6 12.Qf3 Be7 13.Bf4 Qb6 14.Qg3 g6
15.Bc7 Qxb2 16.Nxd5 f6 17.Be5 fxe5 18.Nc7+ Kf7 19.Nxa8 Nf6 20.Rab1 Qd2 21.
Nc7 Bd6 22.Red1 e4 23.Qxd6 1-0


Last edited by kapilgain on Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:01 pm 
kapilgain wrote:
The Blackmar-Diemer Gambit in action:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 Bd7 7.O-O cxd4 8.cxd4
Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 Qxe5 11.Re1 Qd6 12.Qf3 Be7 13.Bf4 Qb6 14.Qg3 g6
15.Bc7 Qxb2 16.Nxd5 f6 17.Be5 fxe5 18.Nc7+ Kf7 19.Nxa8 Nf6 20.Rab1 Qd2 21.
Nc7 Bd6 22.Red1 e4 23.Qxd6 1-0


Nice game - definitely the sort you want to be on the winning side of! PS- Nice to see you back, Kapil. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Silman to the rescue!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:06 pm 
chessfips wrote:
If you read my post about the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit and the reply I got (a nice link to Andrew Martin's "refutation" of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit), you will be a lot wiser. Of course the bishop must be placed outside the pawn chain and it must go to g6 (do not take the pawn on c2!) The resulting position will be about equal. :)


I was the person who replied to your post! It's the same link as that above - it's Andrew Martin's article, but it's on Silman's site. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:22 pm 
kapilgain wrote:
The Blackmar-Diemer Gambit in action:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 Bd7 7.O-O cxd4 8.cxd4
Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 Qxe5 11.Re1 Qd6 12.Qf3 Be7 13.Bf4 Qb6 14.Qg3 g6
15.Bc7 Qxb2 16.Nxd5 f6 17.Be5 fxe5 18.Nc7+ Kf7 19.Nxa8 Nf6 20.Rab1 Qd2 21.
Nc7 Bd6 22.Red1 e4 23.Qxd6 1-0


This is not a Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, it is the Milner-Barry Gambit. The Blackmar-Diemer starts with

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3

You may also play a kind of Blackmar-Diemer in the French Defense:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Be3 dxe4 5. f3


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:40 am 
chessfips wrote:
kapilgain wrote:
The Blackmar-Diemer Gambit in action:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 Bd7 7.O-O cxd4 8.cxd4
Nxd4 9.Nxd4 Qxd4 10.Nc3 Qxe5 11.Re1 Qd6 12.Qf3 Be7 13.Bf4 Qb6 14.Qg3 g6
15.Bc7 Qxb2 16.Nxd5 f6 17.Be5 fxe5 18.Nc7+ Kf7 19.Nxa8 Nf6 20.Rab1 Qd2 21.
Nc7 Bd6 22.Red1 e4 23.Qxd6 1-0


This is not a Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, it is the Milner-Barry Gambit. The Blackmar-Diemer starts with

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3

You may also play a kind of Blackmar-Diemer in the French Defense:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Be3 dxe4 5. f3


Oh! My sincere apologies :oops: ! As chessfips rightly points out, the game in my previous post is the Milner-Barry Gambit and not the Blackmar-Diemer :oops: .
That game was actually played between gniark and yours truly at QueenAlice. [Here's the link to the game: http://www.queenalice.com/game.php?id=31603

By the way, this is the actual game (and yes it is the Blackmar-Diemer! :twisted: ) that I wished to post earlier, but I messed up!

The Blackmar-Diemer Gambit in action:

1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 e5 5.Be3 Bb4 6.fxe4 Nf6 7.Qd3 Qa5 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qxe4 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Qxc3+ 11.Kf2 Qxa1 12.Bc4 Qxh1 13.Bxf7+ Kxf7 14.Nxe5+ Kf6 15.Qh4+ Ke6 16.Qg4+ Kd6 17.Nc4+ Kd5 18.Qg5+ Ke6 19.Qe5+ Kd7 20.Qf5+ Ke8 21.Qxc8+ Kf7 22.Qf5+ Ke8 23.Bg5 Qxh2 24.Qe6+ Kf8 25.Qe7+ Kg8 26.Qe8# 1-0


Last edited by kapilgain on Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:54 am 
mrmip wrote:

And BDG is known to be deadly - for both sides.
8)


I think this very true, especially in otb games. The player with the better opening knowledge (and the better tactical skill !) may win in about 20 moves. I also played the BDG in correspondence games and my results were about 90 % with white and 100 % with black. In correspondence chess you can defend much more correctly than in otb games. I have given up correspondence chess because this requires too much time and they all use their strong computer engines now.

Enjoy the BDG in casual games! It is great fun! :D :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:06 am 
kapilgain wrote:

That game was actually played between gniark and yours truly at QueenAlice. [Here's the link to the game: http://www.queenalice.com/game.php?id=31603]



I tried the link and got the message: "No game found". :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:13 pm 
chessfips wrote:
...The player with the better opening knowledge (and the better tactical skill !) may win in about 20 moves...


Uh, yeah, but isn't this true of just about every opening?

SonofPearl, without doing any hard analysis or looking anything up, is it too obvious for me to suggest just taking the free pawn and developing your pieces? Sure, white might get an outpost on e5 and an open f-file, but that can't really be worth a whole pawn this early, right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:42 pm 
AndyMack wrote:
SonofPearl, without doing any hard analysis or looking anything up, is it too obvious for me to suggest just taking the free pawn and developing your pieces? Sure, white might get an outpost on e5 and an open f-file, but that can't really be worth a whole pawn this early, right?


I'm sure you're right Andy, but that didn't stop me losing several games against it and becoming more and more frustrated. I think the key thing is getting the c8 Bishop outside of the pawn chain and (if placed on f5), spending a tempo moving it back to g6 to shore up f7 and also pre-empt any sacrificial ideas of rook for bishop on f5.

Anyway, I've switched to the Sicilian now, which I'm enjoying much more. :)


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