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Close centre
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Author:  Rexfelix [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Close centre

I like to watch and play closed centre game (d4-e5-f4 or c4-d5-e4 or e3-d4-c5) but, as a rookie, I do not which variation in 1.d4 game reach that position. Could someone give me any suggestion? thanks in advance.

Author:  SonOfPearl [ Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Rexfelix wrote:
I like to watch and play closed centre game (d4-e5-f4 or c4-d5-e4 or e3-d4-c5) but, as a rookie, I do not which variation in 1.d4 game reach that position. Could someone give me any suggestion? thanks in advance.


If your opponent doesn't want a closed centre you can't really force the game along those lines. But, if you opponent plays something like e.g. the King's Indian then there's a good chance you will get your wish.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. d5

It's better to play the best moves for the position on the board. If that means an open game, then so be it. Open games have more tactics - and playing tactical games should help you improve your game. :)

Author:  Zukertort [ Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Rexfelix wrote:
I like to watch and play closed centre game (d4-e5-f4 or c4-d5-e4 or e3-d4-c5) but, as a rookie, I do not which variation in 1.d4 game reach that position. Could someone give me any suggestion? thanks in advance.


The Colle-Zukertort almost always leads to a closed center. The Stonewall attack also does, but it is a much weaker opening.

A video showing the Colle-Zukertort in action can be found here. There are three interesting articles/downloads you might be interested in:

1) The "Philosophy of the Zukertort" download on the Zuke 'Em Excerpt page.

2) The "Zukertort Wisdom" download on the same page.

3) The "Four Keys to the Colle-Zukertort" Article at Chessville

Hope that helps.

Author:  turr [ Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Zukertort wrote:
The Colle-Zukertort almost always leads to a closed center. The Stonewall attack also does, but it is a much weaker opening.

No the center in the Colle is a semi closed one, example of close centers are main lines in the king indian defense, some line in the Ruy Lopez, advanced variations in the french and caro kan. A close center in the colle will be achieved is no central breakthrough is not made or if it is made the player which breaks either c5, e4, or even e5 closes it but rarely you see a close center in a colle.

Author:  Zukertort [ Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Torr,
You are referring to the Colle-Koltanowski.

I said the "Colle-Zukertort" often leads to closed centers. Which it does.

In the Colle-Zukertort, neither side tends to make any central pawn breaks. White does not need to play e4 since his Bishop is comfortably developed at b2. Black eventually tends to exchange on d4 to defuse tactical threats down the long diagonal.

Author:  turr [ Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Zuker

Even in the Koltanowsky black has in his disposal the central breakthrough c5, if black exchanges in d4 as you suggested the center will be semi closed,

Author:  Zukertort [ Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

torr,
I said I was talking about the Colle-Zukertort. And then I said again that I was talking about the Colle-Zukertort.

...cxd4 does open the d-file, but then a later exchange on e5 closes it when white recaptures with the f-pawn.

It is also somewhat common for a closed center pointing the other way to occur in the classical variation where Black play ...Bb7 and ...Nbd7, preparing ...Ne4.

It also can come about in the normal Colle when black plays for an early Q-side fianchetto [as suggested by several authors] without playing ...c5. Indeed, an entire module of my latest book on the Colle system is devoted to precisely this situation.

I will admit to using the term "closed center" rather loosely at first because I thought the poster was using it in a more general way. Even when one of the center files is open for White, the play down the file is secondary or tertiary in nature (more like a threat to hold back ambitious play than a source of candidate moves), and there is generally little opportunity for the center to become unlocked unless White allows it later in the game after the conditions for a K-side assault have been attained.

Author:  turr [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Zukertort wrote:
torr,
I said I was talking about the Colle-Zukertort. And then I said again that I was talking about the Colle-Zukertort.

...cxd4 does open the d-file, but then a later exchange on e5 closes it when white recaptures with the f-pawn.

It is also somewhat common for a closed center pointing the other way to occur in the classical variation where Black play ...Bb7 and ...Nbd7, preparing ...Ne4.

It also can come about in the normal Colle when black plays for an early Q-side fianchetto [as suggested by several authors] without playing ...c5. Indeed, an entire module of my latest book on the Colle system is devoted to precisely this situation.

I will admit to using the term "closed center" rather loosely at first because I thought the poster was using it in a more general way. Even when one of the center files is open for White, the play down the file is secondary or tertiary in nature (more like a threat to hold back ambitious play than a source of candidate moves), and there is generally little opportunity for the center to become unlocked unless White allows it later in the game after the conditions for a K-side assault have been attained.


Zuker where I did I say the d file gets open? You said black has no central breakthroughs and that is incorrect as c5 is a central break as it hits the d4 pawn. The main theme of the post is closed center, a close center is closed period no way of using the term "loosely".

Author:  turr [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Zukertort wrote:
torr,
I said I was talking about the Colle-Zukertort. And then I said again that I was talking about the Colle-Zukertort.

...cxd4 does open the d-file, but then a later exchange on e5 closes it when white recaptures with the f-pawn.

It is also somewhat common for a closed center pointing the other way to occur in the classical variation where Black play ...Bb7 and ...Nbd7, preparing ...Ne4.

It also can come about in the normal Colle when black plays for an early Q-side fianchetto [as suggested by several authors] without playing ...c5. Indeed, an entire module of my latest book on the Colle system is devoted to precisely this situation.

I will admit to using the term "closed center" rather loosely at first because I thought the poster was using it in a more general way. Even when one of the center files is open for White, the play down the file is secondary or tertiary in nature (more like a threat to hold back ambitious play than a source of candidate moves), and there is generally little opportunity for the center to become unlocked unless White allows it later in the game after the conditions for a K-side assault have been attained.
In the Colle-Zukertort, neither side tends to make any central pawn breaks. White does not need to play e4 since his Bishop is comfortably developed at b2. Black eventually tends to exchange on d4 to defuse tactical threats down the long diagonal


Zuker where I did I say the d file gets open? You said black has no central breakthroughs and that is incorrect as c5 is a central break as it hits the d4 pawn. The main theme of the post is closed center, a close center is closed period no way of using the term "loosely".

Author:  Jeroen [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

You could start the Torr and Zuker show. Or the Zuker and Torr Show. Or maybe you already started it.

Author:  Zukertort [ Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

I meant "e-file."

You mentioned an exchange on d4 creating a semi-open center. I was noting that a later exchange on e5 closes the e-file that exd4 (when White recaptures) opens.

Author:  turr [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Close centre

Zukertort wrote:
I meant "e-file."

You mentioned an exchange on d4 creating a semi-open center. I was noting that a later exchange on e5 closes the e-file that exd4 (when White recaptures) opens.


If black takes in e5 after first having exchange in d4 yes the e files gets closed but the d file gets semiopened, black could have a pawn in d5 but there is no white pawn in d file, I do not think that is a close center.

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