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King
 
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:09 pm
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Location: Placentia, CA
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:25 pm 
chuckychess wrote:
RivertonKnight wrote:
1d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4 the bishop left b7 unprotected if 4 ...c6 5 Nc3 followed by Qb3!

After 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4, as Black I prefer the more aggressive 4...e6 (recommended by Soltis). After 5 Qb3, Black plays 5...Nc6!?. If white then plays 6 Qxb7?!, after 6...Nb4! 7 Na3 Rb8 8 Qxa7 Ra8 9 Qb7, Black can force a draw with 9...Rb8, or whip up a powerful attack with 9...Rxa3! 10 bxa3 Nc2+, etc.

Of course, White can refuse to take the bait and play 6 c5, but then Black gets a solid position after 6...c6.


After 6 c5, Black must play 6...Qc8. (6...c6 isn't even legal!) Black plays 5...c6 against almost any "non-threatening" move by White. In this case, Black has the good features of a standard Slav Defense (the QB developed outside of the pawn chain), without the usual bad feature of the Slav (having to give up his QP by playing dxc4.)


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King
 
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:09 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:34 pm 
Eladar wrote:
If you are going to play 1.d4 you must develop a 1.d4 repetoire. The Colle is a solid way to break the ice and start to learn how to play 1.d4.

I bring up the KID because now my 1.d4 repetoire includes the Barry vs the KID. It reminds me of the London, so I suppose I'm opening the door for Nasgard to say "why don't you just play the London all the time?"

Perhaps one day I will! But for now I'm still learning how to the Colle correctly when the Colle is a solid reply.


A good solid 1 d4 repertoire might include the Colle System, The London System and the Torre Attack (1 d4 2 Nf3 3 Bg5). All three of those systems are relatively easy to learn, and at least one of those three systems can be played effectively against virtually any Black Defense. (After 1 d4 h6, I think I'd abandon my three "pet" systems though and play 2 e4. If my opponent lets me easily obtain a nice space and development advantage, I'll seize the opportunity to do so!)


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Knight
 
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:29 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:20 am 
I did the 1.d4 1.e4 a while back when my opponent opened with 1.a6.

I've been reading David Rudel's book and am now playing the Zukertort unless I get a g6, then I switch over to the Barry Attack. I am amazed at how many more options I have playing the Zukertort as compared to the traditional Colle.


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Pawn
 
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:04 am
Posts: 13
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:17 am 
chuckychess wrote:
chuckychess wrote:
RivertonKnight wrote:
1d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4 the bishop left b7 unprotected if 4 ...c6 5 Nc3 followed by Qb3!

After 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bf5 4 c4, as Black I prefer the more aggressive 4...e6 (recommended by Soltis). After 5 Qb3, Black plays 5...Nc6!?. If white then plays 6 Qxb7?!, after 6...Nb4! 7 Na3 Rb8 8 Qxa7 Ra8 9 Qb7, Black can force a draw with 9...Rb8, or whip up a powerful attack with 9...Rxa3! 10 bxa3 Nc2+, etc.

Of course, White can refuse to take the bait and play 6 c5, but then Black gets a solid position after 6...c6.


After 6 c5, Black must play 6...Qc8. (6...c6 isn't even legal!) Black plays 5...c6 against almost any "non-threatening" move by White. In this case, Black has the good features of a standard Slav Defense (the QB developed outside of the pawn chain), without the usual bad feature of the Slav (having to give up his QP by playing dxc4.)


It's true that White cannot get an advantage after 5.Qb3 Nc6 6.c5 Qc8!, but he has to be very patient. Indeed, even 5...b6!? [which most people think is just plain bad] is better than people realize.

But the above is all irrelevant because White should not play 5.Qb3 but rather first play 5.Nc3, then 5...c6 leads into a Slav sideline that is better for White than people think while 5...Nc6 6.c5 forces Black to find the right more (6...a6!) and even then he has not equalized.


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Pawn
 
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:04 am
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 Post subject: Re: The Colle System
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:16 pm 
Hi Everyone,
I realized when I answered the question about 3...Bf5 that I hadn't answered some earlier remarks. Here goes...

fad3r wrote:
My questions are what do the gurus think of a system like this for an intermediate player and if anyone has any experience with the cd and any thoughts about it.


Both Colle Variations [Colle-Koltanowski and Colle-Zukertort] are fine systems for the intermediate player, and the latter (at least) can be played at all levels.

Tang Pau wrote:
Are there ppl who are experinced at this opening system to ask technical questions to when I run into them.


You can email me [David at zukertort ^ com], but you could also ask questions on the Colle System Players Forum.

Tang Pau wrote:
So my question is, is this a viable opening system for black also? like playing all the same moves on blacks aside of the board no matter what white does.


There is the "lion" that can be played on either White or Black. I don't necessarily recommend it, but that's the closest thing I can think of.

Note that it is not quite true that you just play the same 8 or 9 moves no matter what Black does. You can start playing the System that way, but then as you play it more and more you need to pick up the various solutions to the pet defenses people use against the Colle.

kapilgain wrote:
The Colle set-up is most effective when Black has a pawn on d5 (Although I don't know why, but I read it in one of those good opening books.)


The reason the Colle works well based on Black having a pawn on d5 is simple: If black has a pawn there, that square cannot be occupied by anything else nor easily vacated because the pawn has nowhere to go.

Since White has not played c4 and has played d4, Black's pawn on d5 is stuck. Further, his pawn on e6 is stuck. Together this boxes in his position. It is generally a bad idea to allow Black to open up this square unless White has prepared for it or if doing so is part of an attack on Black's King. One reason Colle System players can have trouble against some QID move orders is that Black can hold back d5 and instead put, say, a Knight there [Nc6-b4-d5].

kapilgain wrote:
If you're playing the Colle, e3-e4 will either exchange off or drive back (with e4-e5) the Knight on f6, weakening Black's King's defences and giving you the chance of a king-side attack.


Just a note, this only really applies to the Colle-Koltanowski. In the Colle-Zukertort, Black generally exchanges on d4 to pen up the c-file. White establishes a Knight on e5 and plays f4, opening up plenty of space for a K-side attack.

[quote=Jerry Taylor"]I've played the Colle on and off for years, but I like the Colle-Zukertort line best (wherein White fianchettos his queen's bishop). I haven't seen Olienkov's CD, but I will swear by a couple of books; Aaron Summerscale's "A Killer Chess Repertoire" (London: Everyman Chess, 1998) and Gary Lane's "The Ultimate Colle" (London: Batsford, 2001). Both provide excellent coverage of the Colle and round out your White repertoire for all sorts of off-beat replies where the Colle might not work as well as other lines.[/quote]

Summerscale's book was excellent, but unfortunately cannot be found now. The most recent books on the Colle are Palliser's (Colle-Koltanowski, published in 2008) and mine (Colle-Zukertort, updated in February 2009). Pallier also wrote a useful book called "D-pawn attacks" that covers the C-Z, Barry, and 150 attacks.

Viceroy wrote:
For an intermediate player, I don't see the need for buying a cd/ book for one specific opening, especially one like the Colle, who's main strong point is its relative simplicity.


I would disagree. Knowing something about the sidelines and pet defenses is really a critical part of learning the C-Z. If you are going to use the C-Z, you are going to want a reference that discusses those. I spent more pages of Zuke 'Em: The Colle-Zukertort Revolutionized discussing these lines than the mainline itself.

SlimmeZ wrote:
how about playing this line with black? 1)d4-d5 2)Nf3-NF6 3)e3-c5 4)Bd3-Nbd7 5)0-0 -Qc7 6)Nbd2-b6 7) c3- Bb7? Maybe the move order is wrong(I dont have a bord at my side), but this should be the position. If white wants to play e4(after preparing), than his white bishop will be changed, so no much attacking chances and an equal game. I play this set up and don't have any problems with black.


The idea of using a quick Q-side fianchetto is pretty testing. Indeed, I wrote an entire module of my second book on exactly that problem. This module happens to be available as completely free download from my Colle System Excerpt Page. Check it out!

-David


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