The Chess Exchange

The Chess Exchange - To Your Chess Success!

Skip to content

It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:51 pm 






This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Previous topic | Next topic 

  Print view

Author Message
 
 Post subject: Is there a point in underpromoting to Bishop Or Rook?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:29 pm 
First thing, Hello, I am new to these forums. Nice to meet you all.

About the thread, I was wondering, is there a point in underpromoting to a rook or a bishop instead of Queen as the ATTACKER. I know as a fact that as a diffender it is possible to create a stalemate defence with them, yet is there a use for them as an attacking piece?


Top
  
 
User avatar  Offline
King
 
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:13 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Finland
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:32 pm 
Of course, as an attacker, it may prove to be the only way to avoid stalemate and win the game! This is much more common than 'self -stalemate' as a defender.

Underpromoting to a knight is sometimes more effective to the attacker than promoting to a queen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:39 pm 
I Stated bishop or Rook... And do you know of an example in practical play where it actually happened? I went other many games, and never saw a single example.


Top
  
 
User avatar  Offline
Moderator
 
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:20 pm
Posts: 1077
Location: Wales, UK
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:58 pm 
Serpanto wrote:
I Stated bishop or Rook... And do you know of an example in practical play where it actually happened? I went other many games, and never saw a single example.


There are examples (from real games) here :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
Pawn
 
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:09 am
Posts: 5
 Post subject: Great post!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:51 am 
Thanks for that link with practical examples. I don't recall it ever happening in my games. I only knew about some examples from composed problems - but that's not real chess - is it?


Top
 Profile  
 
User avatar  Offline
King
 
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:13 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Finland
 Post subject: Re: Great post!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:14 pm 
whiteking wrote:
I only knew about some examples from composed problems - but that's not real chess - is it?


Why would it be less real than a game between two opponents?
Compositions often try to show us the essense- the pure truth - in chess positions.

Be that as it may, here is some more links to practical games and studies on the subject matter:
http://home.comcast.net/~wdjoyner/chess ... ies06.html
http://home.comcast.net/~wdjoyner/chess ... ies07.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
Knight
 
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:19 am
Posts: 47
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:51 am 
3 minutes ago i just stalemated chessmaster by promoting to Q.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
Newbie
 
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:56 pm
Posts: 2
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:09 pm 
To rub it in. Like the one that doesn't know how to resign. Fine's "1001 check mates" has a section on underpromoting. I believe that it is a colleciton of actual over the board games. I recognized a few Spielmann's games in that book.


Top
 Profile  
 
User avatar  Offline
King
 
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:17 am
Posts: 115
Location: Tempe, AZ
 Post subject: pawn promotions in real games
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:49 am 
I did some looking in Mega 2004 and found the following:

347 games containing a promotion to bishop
1730 games containing a promotion to rook
2208 games containing a promotion to knight
126648 games containing a promotion to queen

The database contains 2607014 games.


Top
 Profile  
 
User avatar  Offline
Site Admin
 
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:42 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
 Post subject: Re: pawn promotions in real games
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:39 pm 
snits wrote:
I did some looking in Mega 2004 and found the following:

347 games containing a promotion to bishop
1730 games containing a promotion to rook
2208 games containing a promotion to knight
126648 games containing a promotion to queen

The database contains 2607014 games.


Checking those underpromotions will show you a lot of situations where the promoted piece is recaptured on the next move, meaning the player made an arbitrary decision, and not so much an underpromotion out of necessity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
Pawn
 
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:32 pm
Posts: 13
 Post subject: promoting to rook or bishop
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:57 am 
Assuming the enemy king can't caputure the promoting pawn..
If your rook or queen in on the 7th rank, and the enemy king is on the 8th, then you can promote your pawn to a rook to deliver checkmate (because it'll do the same job as if you were about to promote it to a queen.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
King
 
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Placentia, CA
 Post subject: Re: Is there a point in underpromoting to Bishop Or Rook?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:37 am 
Anonymous wrote:
First thing, Hello, I am new to these forums. Nice to meet you all.

About the thread, I was wondering, is there a point in underpromoting to a rook or a bishop instead of Queen as the ATTACKER. I know as a fact that as a diffender it is possible to create a stalemate defence with them, yet is there a use for them as an attacking piece?

As the attacker, the only reason to underpromote to a rook or a bishop that I can think of is to avoid stalemating the opponent. The only three reasons that I can think of off hand for underpromoting to a knight as the attacker is to: 1) avoid stalemating the opponent, or 2) it leads to a quicker checkmate, or 3) it checks the opponent so that s/he can't counterattack.


Top
 Profile  
 
User avatar  Offline
King
 
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:57 am
Posts: 142
Location: Leeds, UK
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:53 am 
Yeah, the only value in under promoting is to avoid stalemate - this is a very rare occurrence though - if the king is blocked with nowhere to go when the pawn promotes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
Bishop
 
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:07 am
Posts: 61
 Post subject: Example of positions for underpromotion
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:34 am 
White king in b6 pawn in c6.
Black king in a8 rook in d5

White king in d3 Rook in h2
Black king in d1 pawn in c2


Top
 Profile  
 
 Offline
King
 
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:27 pm
Posts: 184
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:35 pm 
It's an interesting question for the chess-engine writer. Of course the player must be allowed to underpromote, but is it worth letting the computer?

Underpromotion turns one move (already a complicated move) into four moves, so potentially it enlarges the search tree substantially, and takes more time to sort out. Is this time better spent elsewhere?

It may be that you have to make the engine try underpromotion because otherwise it fails in all those compiled puzzles, and the buyer gets upset (and posts horrible things on websites). But it may also be that the engine is actually weaker in conventional games because of it. Anyone know the real answer? I'm just guessing.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 193 on Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:40 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest





cron

ChessCentral - The Leader in Cutting-Edge Chess * Buy Fritz 12 * Buy Rybka 4 * Buy Fritz Powerbook DVD


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

Style based on Andreas08 by Andreas Viklund and created by Elizabeth Shulman, Stop Animal Rights, Dog Training by corgipower