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Pawn
 
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:32 am
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 Post subject: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:23 am 
What do I do if white plays;
1.e4 d5 2.e5


:idea: Any suggestions?[/b]


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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:20 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:26 pm 
Fighterbox wrote:
What do I do if white plays;
1.e4 d5 2.e5


:idea: Any suggestions?[/b]


How about 2...Bf5. Follow up with e6 and c5 (eventually) and you have an improved French defence where your bishop is outside the pawn chain.


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Pawn
 
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:32 am
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:04 pm 
Yeah, that's a good idea I've done this a couple of times, I can't seem to come up with a good way to exchange pieces mostly because of the pawns on e5 and d4/f4(they always defend the e4 pawn with these, comes quite naturaly).


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Knight
 
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:35 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:28 pm 
You should probably study the Caro Kann

see

http://www.chesscentral.com/The-ABC-of- ... 133117.htm

or possibly

http://www.chesscentral.com/Alexei-Shir ... shirov.htm

If, as you say, white plays d4 after 1. e4 d5 2. e5 Bf5, you are in a good line of the Caro Kann Advance variation.. because you can attack the white pawn chain with c5. This saves time over the normal Caro Kann Advance because c5 was played in one move rather than two.


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Pawn
 
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:52 pm
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Location: Portland Oregon
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:58 pm 
I play 2...c5 immediately to hinder 3. d4
I find this very effective.
Because without this move, White will have difficulty holding his center.

I score well with the Scandanavian agains 2. e5

--CM


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Pawn
 
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:32 am
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:19 pm 
c5

Thats good guys very good :D

I've been playing chess for 3 months and I still haven't found a 1.e4 defence that suits me, but I think this is it.

I already tried a lot of defences, I have been using the Sicilian but I'm not that good with it. :cry:


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King
 
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:09 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Placentia, CA
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:41 am 
CoranMoran wrote:
I play 2...c5 immediately to hinder 3. d4
I find this very effective.
Because without this move, White will have difficulty holding his center.

I score well with the Scandanavian agains 2. e5

--CM

In his "The Chess Opening for You", GM Larry Evans recommended the Center Counter (Scandinavian) for Black. Like you, Evans recommended 2 e5 c5!.


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Pawn
 
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:50 am
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 Post subject: 1.e4-d5; 2.e5?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:19 pm 
It's not a good move. You want to enter in french defense (in example: 2...e6, 3.d4) but, black press d4 square easily :
1.e4-d5; 2.e5?-c5! or (it's possible: 3.c3-d4!)
1.e4-d5; 2.e5?-d4!
You can see chess games (and download them) about this variation (Scandinavian defense) in the next url(s):

http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/lasker.htm
http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/lasker2.htm
http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/anderssen.htm
http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/mieseskotrvc.htm
http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/pytelwade.htm
http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/with2nnf6.htm
http://www.ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09/restinb01.htm

I don't recommend you 2.e5

Greetings


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King
 
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:03 am
Posts: 116
 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:52 pm 
SonOfPearl wrote:
Fighterbox wrote:
What do I do if white plays;
1.e4 d5 2.e5


:idea: Any suggestions?[/b]


How about 2...Bf5. Follow up with e6 and c5 (eventually) and you have an improved French defence where your bishop is outside the pawn chain.


I do that a lot, but it really annoys me because I can't find a good way to develop my king knight due to the pawn on e5. Could someone please suggest a good development scheme with this formation? Excuse me for not knowing one, I'm not a French player.


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Pawn
 
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:50 am
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 Post subject: Ok
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:27 am 
If you play 1.e4-d5; 2.e5?! is not good. You must play:
1.e4-d5; 2.exd5-Qxd5; 3.b4!? and the plan:Rb1-Nb5; it is a fantastic sacrifice of pawn.
Or 1.e4-d5; 2.exd5-Qxd5; 3.Nc3 and the plan: d4-Nf3-Bc4 (b5 or e2 in some variations) 0-0-Bd2- with idea of Ne4 (Queen's black probably haven't many squares in this position)
But, back to the old variation; 1.e4-d5; 2.e5?-c5 and the black is good.
Enter to this webpage: http://ecochess.com/b00b99/b00b09.htm
and you search in : Eco Code B01 (Scandinavian defense = Centre counter defense)
I see you later!


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Rook
 
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:38 am
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Location: UK
 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:38 pm 
As other posters have said if white plays 2.e5 black gets a comfortable game immediately - I would second SoP’s recommendation of 2…Bf5 - White will almost certainly play 3.d4 in which case you just have a kind of French advanced but without the bishop imprisoned.

I switched to playing the modern Scandinavian (2…Nf6) from the Sicilian about 6 months ago and this line does come up occasionally.

The real reason I play it though is because at the ECF:120 and under level after 2…Nf6 most white players will go 3.c4 and allow you into the Scandinavian gambit (3...c6 4.dxc6, Nxc6) which is a terrible mistake, within 3 moves black has crushing pressure.

The downside is after 3...c6 white doesn’t have to take the pawn and can instead transpose into a Panov-Botvinnik attack, which is an aggressive line of the Caro-Kann and much more tricky for black to meet - it’s never happened to me so far though (here’s hoping!)


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Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:57 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:01 pm 
2.e5 is a NIGHTMARE! i despise it! try as i might, i just can't beat it and score 10% on a good day against lower rated players even with Bf5! i call it the weasel variation as it turns black into a sitting duck whether it be the queenside after 0-0-0, in the center TRYING to castle all the while tripping over pieces, or stuck on the kingside waiting for the pawnstorm or the dreaded queen & knight ripping you a new one in the center & going after your rook impossible to defend.

i've NEVER been able to figure out a way to get rid of that $#@&ing e5 pawn so i can develop my pieces and start attacking or to do anything with my king's bishop except trade it for white's QB IF c5 can open the QS which will eventually keep black from playing 0-0-0 anyways. i'd GLADLY sac a knight or a bishop if i could get ride of e5! f6 is no solution either as white doesn't want to take, and you've just opened your king up to Qh5+ and you might as well resign right there if white's knight is in the area too.

all a tactical player who has ZERO understanding of position can do is squirm around in a tight space with all of his pieces scattered & uncoordinated like my last game where both of my knights were pinned by bishops & keeping me from castling until black brought a 3rd piece in and got a freebie.

i play 1...d5 to get OPEN games, not suffocate in a barrel. someone needs to come up with some theory for this as all there is is Schiller's LAME comic book treatment that leaves black out of book as soon as move #3 with the smug recommendation to play c5 a lot with NO info on why or what to do other than dread a Qa4+ that rips the queenside open.

i will quit playing chess if i can't find a way to get my pieces out in this line as trench warfare lines like the Caro-Cann & French are even LESS appealing.

all i know is that i'm already dreading the game after 2.e5 whether it be losing my KS rook, getting smothered in the center, or in a queenside castle, NONE of which allow me ANY piece play!

i'd like a new chess rule where anyone that plays 2.e5 in the Scandinavian at least, has to switch sides and play against it as black! it drives me nuts and i don't get that GMs just dismiss it like it's an easy game to play as black when it's free points for the WORST white players! Harman & Talbut simply say something like "after 2...Bf5, black is already winning and shouldn't fear white's foolish e5 at all". OK, I exaggerate, but this line drives me into rages to the point if I've seen too many of them in one day, i start aborting games to avoid it altogether.

i want to play 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.dxc6 Nxc6 (the scandinavian gambit), NOT how fast can you lose 2.e5!

any recommendations for offbeat black replies that play like gambits with active piece play for black asap? forget ANY trench openings! i want pieces out in the open and a quick 0-0.

i seem to remember a 1.e4 e5 2...f5 line that's a reversed king's gambit. that would be something more to my tastes. i love risky play, but the risk in 2.e5 scandinavian is ENTIRELY black's. if i wanted a closed game, i wouldn't play 1...d5 to begin with.

i know i'm not the only one who's clueless and frustrated in those lines either. there just aren't ANY targets to swarm one's pieces around in "the declined" and that's my entire understanding of chess, tactics & targets. in well over 100 games by now EASILY, the most active one i've ever had (not counting really long games where my pieces finally can break free and TRY to find a route to white's 0-0-0) was one where i managed to open the h file and connect my rooks on it. it's too bad one can't FORCE an open h file.


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 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:01 pm 
I just read your post on the "horrors" of 2 e5 in the Scandinavian with interest because I have always mentally perked up when my opponent plays this move, knowing I will probably win.

Without doubt the two best replies are 2...c5 and 2...Bf5. It probably doesn't make that much difference which you choose since you will be playing both of them within the first few moves anyway. For what it's worth, I prefer c5, perhaps because I played the French Defense for years and the development is somewhat similar to meeting the Advanced Variation. In fact it is a super version of the French because you haven't played e6 yet and you can get your Bishop outside the pawn chain with no problem. It almost seems too easy. Recent very good books on the Scandinavian by Christian Bauer, Jovanka Houska and Andrew Martin all recommend ...c5. Someone earlier mentioned that Larry Evans also did. I noticed in the database that the higher the rating the more likely ...c5 is chosen over ...Bf5. Even so, I doubt that it makes that much difference.

Here are the statistics from my 2010 Mega Data Base:

1.e4 d5 2.e5 Bf5 594 games 1-0 175; 1/2 104; 0-1 315 Black is scoring 62%
1.e4 d5 2.e5 c5 951 games 1-0 280; 1/2 181; 0-1 490 Black is scoring 61%

These would be extremely impressive statistics for a white opening and are ultra sensational for a Black defense.

For some reason, the players' average rating is 100 points higher (both Black and White) in the ...c5 statistics. I have browsed though the Black wins and I can say that there are nearly 200 wins that are 30 moves or less for Black in just the ...c5 group alone. These games include a lot of tactics and aggressive play that you say you prefer.

The main lines go like this:

1e4 d5 2e5 Bf5 3d4 e6 4Nf3 c5 5c3 Nc6 65% for Black from here
1e4 d5 2e5 Bf5 3d4 e6 4Bd3 Bxd3 5Qxd3 c5 6c3 Nc6 7Nf3 Nge7 69% for Black from here
1e4 d5 2e5 c5 3c3 Nc6 4d4 cxd4 5cxd4 and from here Qb6 is 66% for Black and Bf5 is 74%
1e4 d5 2e5 c5 3f4 Nc6 4Nf3 Bg4 5Be2 e6 60-0 Nge7 and 67% for Black from here.

So in general you need to play Bf5, c5, e6, Nc6, Qb6 and Nge7. The Knight will find a nice square at either f5 (perhaps after the Bishop has been exchanged or moved to g6)or g6. Don't be in a hurry to castle. After Nc6, the Qa4+ that you say you fear doesn't exist. I noticed especially in the short games that sometimes Black did not castle at all and when he did it was often quite late like move 14 or more. Not really a problem because White, who has neglected development by 2e5 is fighting for his life by then.

After you do castle, then f6 is often quite a good move since if White declines to take (allowing Rxf6), you can take and open up the f-file for your rook. You may not realize it but that pawn on e5 is a target and White is forced to defend it which keeps him a bit less mobile than he might otherwise be. So look beyond the minor annoyance of not being able to play your Knight to f6 right away---you are in no trouble at all and reasonable play should result in 0-1.

To summarize: The experts all say that 2e5 is a very bad move. The databases confirm this. It has been my experience as well. So your problem is that you are not playing against it properly. I suggest you do the following: 1. Run your games through "blunder check" on Fritz/Hiarcs or whatever software you have available. You must be making some bad moves to lose to lower rated players. See what the good moves are and learn from the study. If you have have the access to use a database, look up 1e4 d5 2e5 c5 then filter for only Black wins, you can further filter for wins in 25 moves or less if you like. Play through them, this will give you a good feel for how the opening should go.

Good luck and don't give up on the Scandinavian. The ...Nf6 variation can be a lot of fun. See 2 e5 for what it is---a golden opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:37 pm 
i think i'm just going to drop the scandinavian as soon as i can find a way to hire an amateur programmer to make a book editor & openings training program that works the way i want, namely NOT in the variations within variations abomination way that chessbase & bookup do and without the TOTALLY backwards pruning method that the latter does and switch to 1.e4 e5 and look for gambit lines from there.

i score something like 10% in 1.e4 d5 2.e5 even against -100 opponents because being cramped and unable to play Nf6 etc. drives me nuts and i don't understand how to play c5 other than to use it to open a line up for a bishop check so i can put my knight on useless e7 and be able to castle.

i don't even like playing e5 as white against the scandinavian or french etc. i despise closed positions. as soon as i have a tool that i can create books with and study them, i'm switching to 1...e5 gambits and putting my knight on f6 where it belongs, ready to attack on a moments notice instead of cringing impotently on the back rank.

i don't have a clue when it comes to positional chess. if i can't mobilize my pieces for tactics, i can't play... period. i always tell opponents who are weak in tactics who can't contend with my style to just keep blocking me with pawns and don't give me any targets to aim at and wait for me to collapse under scattered & confused pieces, just like the infuriating positions that arise out of denying me development in the advance variation.

you just understand position better than i do. i'm totally clueless in pawn play and couldn't learn the pawn ending in not 1, but THREE different texts that might as well have been written in latin as i just don't do abstractions. tactics are blatantly obvious to me, but position is voodoo science.


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 Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Defence
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:13 am 
Well, good luck. Unfortunately I think all the good gambits in the 1 e4 e5 opening belong to white. The obvious exception is the Marshall Gambit which is really fairly complex and requires some positional sense. I don't like to play ...e5 against 1 e4 primarily because I have want to control the opening more (one of the beauties of the Scandinavian) and also keep my repertoire from becoming too theory intense. After 1 e4 e5, white has so many different ways to go and at the club level you see most all of them. I became a much better player when I simplified my openings and spent the bulk of my "study" time on tactics, strategy. endgame and the analysis of my own games.


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